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Author Topic: New mic  (Read 5333 times)

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Offline Old Goat

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New mic
« on: December 21, 2011, 10:07:07 PM »
I was just gifted a new CAD Trion 7000 ribbon mic. It was on... Ok There's a thread on gearslutz.com called morefreestuff. Google it if you want. Anyway, we give away stuff we don't need and do things for folks that do. I was fortunate enough to be the recipient in a recent cancer donation drive. Any y'all use one of these?

I hate to tear the setup down to try it, cuz I got the sound, but... ;)
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Offline Glenn

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Re: New mic
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2011, 02:39:00 PM »
Hey Ed, good score... nice gift!  8)
 
I'm not familiar with the exact model - the 7000,
> I just googled it, and see that it has a dual element, and a figure 8 pattern ... great for capturing 'ambience'.
 
Just talking off the top of my head here ..... 8)   FWIW,
 
 I think you may be in for a surprise when you record with it.  Wether it's a pleasant surprise, I think, will depend on what you use it for, and how you apply it (positioning etc).
 
With your voice, and the types of frequencies already inherent in your particular 'vocal signature' - you may find a ribbon mic a bit 'bright' or even 'brittle' sounding BY COMPARISON (not yelling, just emphasizing with caps ) to what you are using now.... ?
 
- perhaps!  maybe not...I see the polar pattern and frequency response on the 7000.. and it looks like this particular model is NOT as bright of a mic compared to some specs I've seen on other Ribbon mics.  If you EQ heavily now, maybe you won't need to tweak as much, compared to your go to mics.  hard to say til you try it though.
 
On your Guild, and other instruments, I think you'll find some real nice uses for it.  You may simply love it on your guitar.

Acutally, it looks like it could do well with bass, and speaker cabinets as well - I see it's being used alongside the SM57 for micing cabs up.
 
Ribbon mics are often associated with 'brilliance, crispness, sheen, airy-ness, etc" and are often used on female vocals to bring out the beautiful frequencies of the female voice.  Ribbon mics work differently than Condensers or Dynamics.  They've been around for a very long time in Pro Studio, Radio and other apps.
 
Having said that, you may find that a ribbon mic creates a 'sibilance' issue in some cases, especially with certain vocal types, but maybe not with this model... test and tweak accordingly.
 
Personally, I'd love to have ribbon mic, just so it's in my arsenal of 'tools' for when it's needed.
 
Something I might do or try with it would be:
-using it in tandem with your other mics, as the ribbon mic may allow you to not need to adjust EQ quite so much,
 
- use it as an 'ambient' mic and track it separately along with your regular set up ( assuming you have a spare rail or mic input ) and then dial it in to taste.
 
- if you ever record wind intruments with it, sax, flute, clarinet, horns etc ... you may be very pleasantly surprised at the naturalness, brilliance and presence that the 7000 can deliver.
Great for a 'group' of vocalists or sax or horn section too, because of it's balanced Middle/ Side pickup pattern.
 
Hey, a 30 second, A / B test would be great to hear if you are so inclined. Try recording a track of vox or guitar with both mics going to separate tracks, and then without EQ or processing, export each track - would be great to hear the difference of the 'naked' mics sound, comparitively speaking. :)
 
Glenn
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 03:04:24 PM by Glenn »
Old Eastern saying "Man who run in front of car, - get tired .... man who run behind car, get exhausted"
I like to ride IN cars, it's less tiring and less exhausting :)

Offline Old Goat

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Re: New mic
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2011, 07:25:23 PM »
I hope to get a chance this weekend. I'm using an AT 4050 in Fig 8 to reject the guitar. Should just be able to swap out and adjust the pre.

Thanks, Glenn.
Better a crust in peace than a feast in a house of contention.

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Offline Old Goat

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Re: New mic
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2011, 07:08:12 PM »
Okay, I got to try out the new mic today. Since it's a fig. 8 ribbon, I didn't have to change the setup, just the closeness and preamp settings. Here are two short clips of the same song (new one) using different mics on the vocal channel.

At first I thought I'd need on of those FET boosters, but after tweaking and futzing about, I was able to get a good signal. I did have to pretty well slam the pre, but not max it out.
Better a crust in peace than a feast in a house of contention.

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Offline Joom

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Re: New mic
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2011, 09:12:33 PM »
That is a nice song, OG.

Don't know which clip is which, but I tend to like the vox sound in A a little better than B...
A computer once beat me at chess - but as it turns out it was no match for me at kickboxing... ;)

Offline Old Goat

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Re: New mic
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2011, 09:13:31 PM »
Thanks. Duly noted.
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Offline Glenn

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Re: New mic
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2011, 04:39:25 AM »
Hey OG.  :)    Nice song you have going there! Beautiful sound, and can't wait to hear the whole thing when it's ready.  I gotta say, that mic sounds good!  :)
 
I wanted to give it a good few listens before commenting... but first thing I noticed when listening to both mp3's was that "A" sounded a bit louder to my ears, and wary that this might cause a feeling that "A" may be better,  as "louder" can sometimes be equated as "Better" ...
 
I converted both to wav files, imported into Audacity, and checked the relative volumes of each track, and yep, "A" was 1.1dB louder than "B", so I checked the RMS and "A" was about 2 dB louder, so I added 1.5 gain to "B" to bring it up to closer to "A".
 
After listening to both side by side, knowing that I was hearing "A" or "B"...I then copied them over several times alternating one then the other... then placed the cursor blindly on the timeline (and put it on Loop), so I wouldn't know which file was playing first... listened again ...hmmm.
 
I couldn't 'notice' any great differences that would immediatley pop out, focusing on the vox track, for frequency response, silibance, ambience, overdrive or distortion, etc ... listening through speakers, and keeping the volume the same throughout the listening.  :) 
 
so I copied the same short phrase (3 sec)  from both A and B and pasted them one after the other (but still on their own separate tracks) and put the cursor on the time line, and played each section over and over on 'loop' and, not only could I NOT decide which one was "A" anymore, ... I couldn't make a decision that one sounded "Better" than the other... they sounded very much the same to my ears... something which surprised me, as I thought I would be able to pick up some subtle differences, if not gaping ones.  8)    ... they each sounded equally pleasant to my ears!
 
I'd be interested in reading others' finding if they did the same test as I, levelling the files first, as I think I may very well have opted for "A" had I not done that.
 
Interesting!  :)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 02:44:58 PM by Glenn »
Old Eastern saying "Man who run in front of car, - get tired .... man who run behind car, get exhausted"
I like to ride IN cars, it's less tiring and less exhausting :)

Offline Old Goat

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Re: New mic
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2011, 08:22:44 AM »
Thanks, Glenn. A friend of mine with practiced ears couldn't tell the difference, either, but said they could both use a couple of dB cut around 1.5-1.8 kHz.
Better a crust in peace than a feast in a house of contention.

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Offline Glenn

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Re: New mic
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2011, 02:46:35 PM »
yep yep yep,   .... right on!!!  :)
 
Happy Recording!!!
 
Glenn
Old Eastern saying "Man who run in front of car, - get tired .... man who run behind car, get exhausted"
I like to ride IN cars, it's less tiring and less exhausting :)

Offline Joom

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Re: New mic
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2011, 03:49:03 PM »
I had noticed right away there was a definite level difference, and as you say Glenn some equate loudness to more/better sound, but after I had a few listens I had done a little testing too - just to see why I liked A better.

I could be mistaken, but what I found on a quick check was that (aside from the difference in leveling and/or RMS) B seemed to be carrying higher into the freq range.  There was more sound over the 15KHz range in B than in A.  There also seemed to be slightly more sound at the bottom end of the freq range on A other than just a leveling amount.  Not that it would be easily distinguishable, but on the right sound system it could be a noticeable effect.

Might be just me imagining things, but on my system playing both at the same level I still hear (or maybe feel is a better word) a slight difference between the two clips, liking the 'feel' of A slightly better...
A computer once beat me at chess - but as it turns out it was no match for me at kickboxing... ;)

Offline Old Goat

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Re: New mic
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2011, 06:50:37 PM »
A consensus seems to be forming. ;)

I think I'll put the AT back on vocals and replace one of the Oktavas with the CAD on guitar.

Thanks for your ears, gents. 8)
Better a crust in peace than a feast in a house of contention.

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Offline Glenn

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Re: New mic
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2011, 11:20:01 PM »
Hey JOOM, .. agreed, on different systems the 'effective difference' from A to B could be brought out in varying amounts depending on the system.  ..and we can only say what we are 'hearing' or think we are hearing or not hearing ...or 'feeling' from one to the other. 
good point.  :)
 
"A" / "B" test listening has always been an 'interesting' experience for me... the whole 'process' of setting up a blind test in an 'equal playing field' testing apples to apples, and then factoring in the 'phsyco-logical' aspects too...  :P   interesting indeed!.
 
CHears
Glenn  :)
Old Eastern saying "Man who run in front of car, - get tired .... man who run behind car, get exhausted"
I like to ride IN cars, it's less tiring and less exhausting :)

Offline Old Goat

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Re: New mic
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2011, 07:09:14 PM »
I just went down and put the 4050 back on the vocal stand, and switched out the 1st Oktava for the CAD, positioned to reject the voice. Rosie helped me reset the levels. Gotta say that CAD sounds pretty good on the guitar through the MPA. We upped the input a bit to hit the tube harder, and it's just nice.

I'll be trying it out for real in the morning, and--of course--will post some clips. ;)
Better a crust in peace than a feast in a house of contention.

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Offline Old Goat

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Re: New mic
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2012, 01:29:39 PM »
Here's the fruits of the morning's labor--some of it, anyway.
Better a crust in peace than a feast in a house of contention.

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Offline Glenn

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Re: New mic
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2012, 08:08:55 PM »
Hey OG,
Just heard your 'clips' ...
 
not sure which is which, but I was focusing on the guitar mainly, and I notice "A" is a bit 'brighter' than "B" ... while B seems a little richer or 'darker' ( in the 300 to 600 Hz range)  ... I think I like A a little better as it seems to have a bit more cutting power yet still sounds full in the bottom.  I like to hear the high E and B strings sounding like little bells.. good high end... but that's just me.
 
Sounds good OG!  :)
Happy Recording.
Old Eastern saying "Man who run in front of car, - get tired .... man who run behind car, get exhausted"
I like to ride IN cars, it's less tiring and less exhausting :)